I am genuinely puzzled as to how anyone of reasonably good character can consider voting Tory now. Can anyone clarify?
I am genuinely puzzled as to how anyone of reasonably good character can consider voting Tory now. Can anyone clarify?
A. QUICK CHECKS – are you ok with points 1-6; read on if you are
Let’s get a few
things out of the way quickly.
1. This is a political (and moral) post. See note 1.
1. This is a political (and moral) post. See note 1.
2. The post may
be considered controversial/ challenging. See note 2 . Lies are lies and I refer
to them as such.
3. The post is specifically and solely about Tories. See
note 3.
4. Feedback
(recognising points 1 to 3) is definitely hoped for and welcomed if it’s reasonable,
reliable, respectful and relevant. Can be face to face, phone skype etc, or written
comment. "Relevant" is very important See previous point and Note 4.
5. Comments out
of scope will therefore be deleted after flagging the issue. See Note 5.
6. If you think "Mike would say that, wouldn’t he?",
I encourage you to focus instead on the
issues, but if in doubt please see point 6
Read on if
you’re fine with 1 to 6; or look at the notes below if you're not sure. Scroll
to another post please if points 1-6 don’t work for you/
______________________________________________________
To restate: I
am genuinely puzzled as to how anyone of reasonably good character can consider
voting Tory now. Can anyone clarify?
If the question is clear you can respond just to that
summary statement, if you already know about the widespread and officially sanctioned
Tory lying, and the obvious implications.
More detail below as
to the reasons why I ask the question.
_________________________________
B. EXAMPLE
RECENT TORY LIES
Can we accept that if you’re of good character then you don’t believe in deceit?
Yet the Tories have
Can we accept that if you’re of good character then you don’t believe in deceit?
Yet the Tories have
- misrepresented
themselves on Twitter, pretending to be a fact-check site, and defended this; they
were warned by Twitter
- paid Google to
take people who were looking for the Labour manifesto to a faked Labour
manifesto site; they were warned by Google
- doctored BBC
journalists’ footage; the BBC complained, the Tories ignored this, until Facebook
agreed with the complaint and took the adverts down.; thousands of people saw
the adverts
- doctored Keir
Starmer footage (and lied about this calling it “editing” to produce a summary –
the “edited” footage showed a silent Keir Starmer which was a lie)
- lied about the reasons for suppressing the report on
Russian interference in the 2016 referendum
- and that’s all
just in the last few weeks.
These are not rogue
actions by over-enthusiastic individuals; that can sometimes happen, and appropriate measures can then be
applied to maintain a party’s commitment to fair dealing. This is Party policy,
and has been defended by Gove, Raab and Cleverley, while Boris Johnson has
dodged the question on the Twitter hoax (and
everything else) and tried to bamboozle by talking about Fermat’s Last theorem,
the Riddle of the Sphinx, and the Bermuda Triangle. If he was in Court facing questioning
by the judge about this then he would not get away with such attempted nonsensical
distraction. They lied. It’s simple.
Nothing to do with Fermat, Sphinxes or Bermuda. He has lied again about the Russian report as Dominic
Grieve has made very clear.
Boris Johnson
said during the leadership election, that he was not attracted to the idea of proroguing Parliament,
so he clearly understood the difference between right and wrong. Before
Parliament had done anything to affect his decision, he then casually ignored
what he had said, involving himself in further deceit and getting the queen's
signature on the instrument of that deceit.
The Government maintained that there was a Cunning Plan to leave the EU legally on 31 Oct 2019 despite the “Benn Act”. But that was a bluff ( a lie, in other words, repeated by many senior members of the Government) - there was no such plan except for a pointless and ineffective childish stunt of omitting the signature from the extension letter and sending another letter. The EU responded to the communication which was constitutionally agreed by a majority in parliament, i.e. the unsigned letter. But millions of public money was spent in No Deal planning , which Parliament has repeatedly shown it will not support. This is use of public money for a political purpose (i.e. the bluff) rather than for the benefit of the UK public.
C. WHAT DOES LYING
TO THIS EXTENT TELL US ABOUT THE WEAKNESS OF THE TORY CASE?
This post is about
the 2019 Tories, and the persistent, institutional, defended dishonesty we are
now seeing.
We surely
must recognise that if your case is so bad that you’re ashamed of the truth,
and instead you lie repeatedly, then your own case has little merit.
If you feel you need to misrepresent your opponent's case in order to challenge a "straw man" opponent, then you must be fearful that your opponent's real case is powerful, and one to which you have no answer.
If you feel you need to misrepresent your opponent's case in order to challenge a "straw man" opponent, then you must be fearful that your opponent's real case is powerful, and one to which you have no answer.
Lies are still
lies even if the whole Party robotically repeats them, like “Everyone wants to
get Brexit done” which is blatant nonsense. A Christian Government Minister
seemingly couldn’t bring herself to state this lie when talking to me and softened
to "We just need to get Brexit done " (implying " and this will
unite the country" as if many people would be thrilled
to be out-manoeuvred in the way the Government clearly wants to).
The need to "ensure there is trust in our
politicians" is advocated by those who have done an enormous amount to
reduce trust in politicians since 2016,
so it is difficult to see this as their motivation.
D. WHAT DOES SUCH LYING MEAN FOR THE FUTURE OF THE UK?
As voters we
must recognise that promises by those who lie all the time are worthless even
if they are written on a bus. So a vote for the Tories is a complete "unlucky
dip". If you hand the deceivers a mandate to do what they want for 5 years,
then what happens will not be what you want or what they said they will do,
unless there was a sudden 180 degree turn towards a path of honesty such as we
have never seen in politics before. By the way they also propose to substantially
disable judicial review , which presumably indicates that they want to undertake unspecified actions currently
considered unlawful. (How about postponing the 2024 General Election for 5 years?)
E. THE REAL UNANSWERED PUZZLE
I wrote a similar blog, particularly from the Christian
viewpoint, about Remain vs Brexit. https://viewdelta.blogspot.com/2019/08/9-reasons-why-i-as-christian-am-in.html
Interestingly no Christian chose to engage with these arguments either online or face to face. In the absence of response I made an attempt at putting the opposing case, for balance. https://viewdelta.blogspot.com/2019/09/what-reasons-might-there-be-for.html
I won’t attempt to put the opposing case this time - I can’t see anything positive to say on this issue for the Tories.. If you think there's a case, I'd like to hear it.
Interestingly no Christian chose to engage with these arguments either online or face to face. In the absence of response I made an attempt at putting the opposing case, for balance. https://viewdelta.blogspot.com/2019/09/what-reasons-might-there-be-for.html
I won’t attempt to put the opposing case this time - I can’t see anything positive to say on this issue for the Tories.. If you think there's a case, I'd like to hear it.
I asked this question about people of good character supporting
deceit on the "Brexit's a Trick not
a Treat" Facebook page under the heading "Everyone wants to get Brexit Done"
https://www.facebook.com/brexitsatrick/posts/136148224454116?__tn__=K-R
Among 300+ varied comments that people made,almost none answered the question - other than one comment supporting the Tories that "the difference is that we have an objective in sight", i.e. the end justifies the means. Sorry, I can’t sign up to that principle; if what you want to achieve is right, then there will be a morally right way to achieve it
https://www.facebook.com/brexitsatrick/posts/136148224454116?__tn__=K-R
Among 300+ varied comments that people made,almost none answered the question - other than one comment supporting the Tories that "the difference is that we have an objective in sight", i.e. the end justifies the means. Sorry, I can’t sign up to that principle; if what you want to achieve is right, then there will be a morally right way to achieve it
I have come to the conclusion that it is really important
that the Tories are decisively defeated in the 2019 General Election. Any other
result will be seen nationally and internationally as rewarding deceit. The conclusion
will be that persistent institutional lying works. This would be a dreadful
outcome for democracy. It is a more fundamental issue than Brexit. But a decisive defeat would signal that such
large-scale lying does not fool the majority
of the U.K. electorate. That would be a step forward for democracy, or a step
back from a world of manipulated alternative facts in which truth is despised
by those in power.
In summary: I cannot conceive of how anyone of good character
can consider voting Tory - but I know that some such people are considering this,
and I don’t question your good character, but I ask you to shed some light on
the paradox by which you can support such deceit?
Corollary – I cannot see how any Christian can vote Tory – but again I recognise that some Christians I know are planning or considering this and I invite dialogue on this because I can not see the rationale.
(If my understanding of your motives is inadequate, I would love you to enlighten me – recent previous questions I have posed have resulted in no clear response).
_________________________________________
Corollary – I cannot see how any Christian can vote Tory – but again I recognise that some Christians I know are planning or considering this and I invite dialogue on this because I can not see the rationale.
(If my understanding of your motives is inadequate, I would love you to enlighten me – recent previous questions I have posed have resulted in no clear response).
_________________________________________
F. NOTES (See above)
- You only need to look here if you have any questions about the "quick checks" 1 to 6 points at the start.
- You only need to look here if you have any questions about the "quick checks" 1 to 6 points at the start.
1. Some people say they don’t read political posts on Facebook.
I absolutely support that personal choice. I used to avoid posting about politics on Facebook, but
for me 2016 brought in fundamental issues of truth and justice which meant that
for me a politics-free Mike was not an authentic Mike. But if you disagree with
my choice the answer is easy - scroll to another post. I respect your choice
and invite you to respect mine.
2. This may be controversial but I trust that if you read
it you'll find it authentic. In my view we don't solve problems by avoiding
them. If you disagree but want to communicate in another medium (chat, have a
coffee, phone call, skype, etc) then I welcome that - likely to be more productive.
Comments here are fine too.
3. To consider this point properly we absolutely must avoid
getting distracted. If you want to write about other Parties, start a post on
that subject. But let me just deal with a common and faulty defence. When I hear from some people "well, the other
side lied too", then
- you have not justified you own deceit; two wrongs do not
make a right; any democratic deficit created by other untruths is not solved by
you adding to it
- with that one word "too" you have admitted your
own culpability.
It is also perverting the truth if you (or TV journalists)
too readily conclude (perhaps "for balance" ) that "they're all
as bad as each other". That's not a defence for criminals in the dock, and
should not be considered a defence for politicians irrespective of the validity
(or otherwise) of the statement.
4. I am puzzled and genuinely
cannot understand how people of good character can consider voting for Boris Johnson.
Yet I know that I have friends who I do consider to be of very good character
that are considering or have even decided to do so. How you can consider this is a mystery to me,
but a mystery I would genuinely like some insight on. The offer of a chat / coffee
/ call stands, as well as the opportunity to respond with comments here.
With reference to my similar blog on Brexit, I could repeat this point changing "of good character" to "who are Christian", and this would still be an accurate statement about my puzzlement. (So I cannot understand how any Christian can consider voting for Boris Johnson, but fully recognise that there are some who may or will, and I invite them to respond in some way)/ . But I wanted this post to be inclusive and to refer to more people than those who identify as Christian, and for that reason I have not included the many Biblical references about the importance of truth which seem to be inescapable.
With reference to my similar blog on Brexit, I could repeat this point changing "of good character" to "who are Christian", and this would still be an accurate statement about my puzzlement. (So I cannot understand how any Christian can consider voting for Boris Johnson, but fully recognise that there are some who may or will, and I invite them to respond in some way)/ . But I wanted this post to be inclusive and to refer to more people than those who identify as Christian, and for that reason I have not included the many Biblical references about the importance of truth which seem to be inescapable.
Regarding the House Rules I have proposed above ("reasonable,
reliable, respectful and relevant"),
they are defined more fully in the Pinned Post on the "Brexit's Musical
Trick" page. You don't have to read the rest of the page
https://www.facebook.com/BrexitsAMusicalTrick/posts/131444908296992?__tn__=K-R
https://www.facebook.com/BrexitsAMusicalTrick/posts/131444908296992?__tn__=K-R
5. Please may I emphasise again that out-of-scope comments don’t
belong here. I'm not curbing free speech, you can say your stuff elsewhere. But
I have gone to the trouble of posting on a specific subject and on-topic
comments get lost if there is a forest of off-topic comments as can easily
happen. Reminder: "the other lot lie too", whatever you think of the
statement, is out of scope., i.e. off-topic - so if you've thought about your
wording carefully, keep a copy elsewhere so that you can post it somewhere more
appropriate.
6. You can come up with all sorts of reasons why I might take
the views that I do; I will just point out that I have devoted plenty of effort
to this general issue from early in 2016, with posts raising concerns about campaigns
ignoring the impact on Ireland, the ignored difficulties of implementation, the
ignored challenges of new trade deals, the dismissal of expertise e.g. the impact on sterling, so my concerns are not
new.
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